The struggle to demolish article 370 and guarantee rights to the LGBT community has had a long way, and the activists haven’t yet given up on the struggle. Those belonging to the community have, by now, faced tremendous brunt, in different walks of life. And while there is a debate on, on this issue, prominent Indian LGBT activist, Mr Pallav Patankar interacted with Spectralhues. Below are the transcripts of this exclusive interview:
Mr Pallav, welcome to Spectralhues.com
The transgender bill has been passed by the Supreme Court very recently, and it is getting recognitions by universities and companies. Your reactions to it, sir.
I think, as of now, what we are noticing is that the universities are only allowing you to put a tick and they are recognizing the fact that you can apply as a transgender, or the companies and corporate react very little to the whole thing. But the issue is that it can`t just be taken as to just file it under the transgender form. I don`t think all the universities or organizations are yet sensitized how to deal with transgenders within the organization. Starting from the toilets which they can use or which all facilities are there for transgenders and also, I think, there are lots of myths and misconceptions about being a transgender even in the regular company. So, it`s not just the question of putting transgender as a tick option on the form. It`s also about what efforts you are making to sensitize the students or employees. I think a lot of sensitization along with the Supreme Court verdict is also necessary.
What would you say about the recent data issued by NACO – National Aids Control Organization, stating the numbers of gay men tested positive for AIDS and HIV has escalated?
I am not surprised about it. First of all, you need to understand that the birth rate in the country is going high, it is a growing nation. So, that is one. The second thing to understand is in the early days you had to go to the hospital or you had to go to a site to meet people. Even Humsafar was doing work on condom promotion like going and giving information about HIV or organizations like Humsafar were doing work on the field. You knew that people will congregate in a particular site to give safe sex information. With the advantage of technology, with the help of the internet, you can be meeting anybody, anywhere. You could be totally in the backdrop and could be sexually active on meeting other men. There is no way, right now, that you can reach out people on internet sites, because the internet is what you wish to read. Humsafar has right now, started in the last one and a half year, an internet outreach, where you can actually message people. But when you message people in person and when you message person via the internet, the way you communicate would be very different, because you can`t write long lectures on the internet. So, we have to find out the right kind of messaging on the internet for people to walk into our clinic and take a HIV test. A lot of people sitting on the internet think that it doesn`t happen to people like us, or HIV doesn`t affect us, which is not true. HIV doesn`t see which language you speak or what social class you belong to. If you are having unsafe sex it is going to affect. And I feel that the new generation that is coming out is not really aware of the consequences.
In the recent Dr Priya Vedi incident, don’t you think her husband committed a mistake by marrying her despite knowing that he was homosexual?
I feel that we are living in a patriarchal setup. And patriarchy – while it affects women a lot, it affects men also, in term of telling men what they should be and what they should do. And in that whole process women are receiving worst of the treatment or the consequences are far worse for them. In the case of Priya Vedi, I find it very difficult to sympathize with Dr Vedi as a gay man myself. I took the conscious decision at 21, not to get married to a woman, because I felt that I would be perpetrating injustice on a woman. And I don`t think one should be propagating gay rights at the expense of women`s rights being trampled upon. Because rights are rights and human rights are human rights. So, I don`t want to mince my words by saying that he was wrong and that he was propagating a pretence which was a wrong thing to do. And just because he is a gay man I am not going to stand by him.
In Banglore, some months ago, a gay man was arrested, after his wife cited the reality. What have you got to say about that, sir?
In that particular case, I think the wife also went on to record the case and use section 377 against him. I felt she was quite an empowered woman so she used everything against him. I think incidents like that are good and maybe act as a deterrent to other gay men for not getting married. At the same time, they might be little careful in hiding things and making them underground. I felt that it was again the same issue – he (her husband) was least bothered. It was like I have married because my parents wanted me to. So again, I am not very sympathetic towards him. It opens up an ugly situation as to the kind of risk gay men are exposed to. I guess gay men might say it is better to get married. This is an issue of how laws can be misused – laws which are punitive or against human rights affect the society at large. It is really not going to help the situation further.
What would you say about India’s support to Russia’s attempt in curtailing the benefits of the LGBT community, in the UN, which was backed by China, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?
For the first time it happened, though they could have actually abstained and said that this matter is subjudice. I think it is quite distressing that that happened. You really do not know what is at play out there.
How will you describe the struggle that the community has led so-far?
I can remember from 1990, I must have been around 16 or so, when Ashok (Row Kavi), who is the chairman of the organization, started getting written about it in newspapers. Most of us at that time thought we were the only fricks in this world as everyone was joking about homosexuality in schools and colleges and suddenly some were actually saying that they are gay. And in 90’s, people were actually coming forward to say they were gay too, and there was suddenly this movement in Mumbai, where gay men actually started reaching out to each other because there was a P.O Box number to write to. So, those were fantastic days; it was after long years of suppression that they realized there were others like you. It was an important revolution for me and for a lot of people at that time. I feel modern days are structured because at that time it was quite unstructured. There were no structures, there was no place; we were meeting in parks or so. There was no Humsafar trust in 90’s- it got registered only in 94. We didn`t get a place like this one till 99. We started having meetings, Friday workshops and started understanding ourselves better. Because people came from different social-economic backgrounds, some spoke Hindi, some English, some came from a rich background, some from poor – so we needed to find within that place a common goal which we needed to work on.
How were those initial days when people literally mocked at homosexuals, amidst the “What-Will-People-Say” culture?
People don`t know how to react to a response. In the sense that somebody asked me, ‘Are you a gay? So you like men.’ And I looked back and said “Yes, I like men and I am a gay”. And then they did not know what next to ask me. So, their intention was just to make me feel horrible about myself. I remember once in an office setting somebody kept on asking
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me about my girlfriend and wanted to know about my personal life. And suddenly, in the middle of a few people, he asked me, ‘Do you have a boyfriend?’ And, I said, no I don`t have a boyfriend either, but applications are open. I further inquired if he wanted to apply? (Laughs) He said no, no, same situation for me, so both of us need to make up. So, depends on how you handle the situation. If one wants to get insulted, come I will. So, because of this counseling at an early age of 18, I had that empowerment. I knew how to take bullying and handle the situations.
Which way do you think India will go on Section 377?
I feel quite skeptical about the way it is going on right now. It is yet hinging on a punitive petition which has never got a date in the Supreme Court. And this punitive petition has a very narrow line. From what I understand, it’ll have to be put to vote. People say that you are addressing transgender in a larger LGBT context, without taking into account that there are other extended sections too, which are not being addressed in this particular bill, which is also true. But that does not mean that we are not happy with what we have got in Rajya Sabha. Because what happens to lesbians, what happens to gay men, is something nobody wants to talk about. It has always been looked upon as an elitist movement from the west. They need to understand that there are far more lesbian women and far more gay men in this country than the number of transgender women. Yes, the condition of transgender women is much worse than that of lesbian women and gay men. But, if one were to put up a total sum of people who are being affected, there are far number of lesbians and gays who need to be addressed. At some point of time this country needs to address it. Who is going to do it? What is the political way? We don`t know right now. So, we all are trying to figure out the situation in this new change of power, new leadership. Since it is their first year, they are not very clear about what they wish to say. Sometimes they say something which is in our favour, sometimes they say something totally opposite, and there are other mixed signals which are coming out.
Do you think the Indian government is increasingly ignoring the issue or has got no stand on it?
I think they are confused. They have no understanding of sex, gender and sexuality. They do not understand the difference between being gay and being transgender. For them, it is one and the same thing. They do not understand what being a lesbian is all about. Half of the time, people think lesbians are the ones whom you see in pornographic movies. So, that is what the exposure of Indian men to the lesbian women in our country is. Reality is far remote from what you see. People do not understand these issues at all because we don`t talk about them as such. People are uncomfortable about these issues being discussed. It needs to be changed. Because the more these things stay as myths and misconceptions, the more there are problems. If you see the transgender bill they are speaking about being born transgender. Now, one could be born intersexed, but not transgender. It’s a realization. Being transgender does not mean you have ambiguous genitalia, or being intersex. There are very few people born with both the sexes. So, you have different issues. Right now, they all get confused as one issue and I don`t think right now Indian democracy or political system has the understanding of these issues.
Thank you so much for interacting with us, sir!
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